Ep15: How to Get a Job in Cybersecurity with No Experience (Extended Version)

Speaker: 00:00:00

So it was a test the other day I put in.

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How to get a job in cyber security.

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Without experience.

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And it was the audio from a YouTube short

of course, YouTube shorts, 60 seconds.

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And there's a lot of gems in there,

but I did get a couple of questions

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from listeners and they wanted a

little bit more of an extended version.

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So they understood the concept, but

maybe wanted a little bit more detail.

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So that's what this podcast is.

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So it's definitely longer.

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It's in the 25 minute range, which

may be a little too long, but Hey, if

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you're on a long road trip, And that

is what we're going to talk about today

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is that short version of how to get a

job in cybersecurity about experience.

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But this is going to be the

extended version, and I'm going to

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try to go into a lot more detail.

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So with that, I hope you enjoy.

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Marc: So can you get a job in

cybersecurity without experience?

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Well, short answer, no,

not really long answer.

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Yes.

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And I am proof of that.

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And I'm going to give you some

of the things that I did to get

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into cybersecurity without any

direct or initial experience.

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Tip number one, educations

and certifications.

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Now here's, I did a short on

this, but I want to go into a

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little bit more detail and depth.

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And what I did.

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Was when I was doing my I.

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T.

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style job, I knew that I wanted

to transfer into cybersecurity.

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I just, that just was the

field that I wanted to go into.

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I had a passion for it.

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I knew that where it

was, where it was going.

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It's becoming more and more of a thing

today with AI and everything else.

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So it is a very important field.

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And if you're passionate

about it and you're at I.

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T.

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and you want to move there or

you just want to get into it,

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then this is the video for you.

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I started out.

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with the CompTIA Security

Plus certification.

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And the reason that I did that was

because I didn't know, I knew I wanted

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to get in cybersecurity, but I didn't

have any idea of what realm or what

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field or what areas I wanted to do.

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But I wanted to study for a certification.

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And no, I'm not saying that boot camps

and certifications are the end all

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be all, but they are a great way to

get started and to figure out what it

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is that you're interested in doing.

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So I started out with that.

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I downloaded some apps onto my phone.

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I started studying.

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I got the official study guide.

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It was, and I started reading and

studying and studying and just

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taking flashcards and tests, anything

I could find in the internet.

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And I went to one of those facilities

eventually, and I felt like I was ready.

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I went to one of those

facilities and I took that test

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and I passed and it was hard.

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I felt it was hard.

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I really wasn't sure if I had passed.

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But I did, you know, that feeling

that you get taking certifications

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like that or studying for something I

think is super helpful because it will

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narrow down what realm it is that you

actually want to get involved with.

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And this is a tip I got from

another friend and it was brilliant.

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The C I S S P, go get the manual for

that and start studying for that as well.

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Because you get yourself into the jargon

and the language and the thinking of

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cyber security, you start to understand

all the different realms of it, all

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the domains, and you narrow down maybe

what you want to start to do, but you

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also have a lot of talking points, and

so when you start to talk to recruiters

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and you're going into interviews, It

really helps to get yourself into that

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you're, you're basically emerging,

immersing yourself into that field, right?

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So one of the things you think about

is, sure, I could study a language on

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an app all day and speak with nobody.

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Or I could go to a foreign country and I

would really start to learn that language

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faster because I hear it all the time.

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If you start to study for the

certifications, even if you

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don't intend to take them.

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It will help you to start to get

into that world, to understand the

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language, to understand the jargon,

and that is vastly important.

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So education and certifications, if

nothing else, it's just to get you

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interested in the subject and to

start to understand the material more,

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and understand that cyber security,

information security, is huge.

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And there's a lot of different areas.

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And you may want to focus on one of

those when you're applying to jobs.

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Tip number two, network.

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One of the greatest things about this

industry in particular, maybe a lot of

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other industries too, is that you can

network and that doesn't mean just what

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you think, like networking on LinkedIn.

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Networking isn't going to conferences.

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RSA is cheap, cyber security

type conference you can go to.

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B sides, DEF CON, whatever.

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It isn't just to meet people and look to

see, hey, is there a job or an opening?

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It's to get yourself into that industry.

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So when I started transitioning from IT

into cybersecurity, I got myself a pass to

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go to RSA and I just saw all the different

vendors and all the different booths,

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all the different technologies that I

hadn't been directly exposed to, but made

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a huge difference in what I was doing.

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I also got to talk to a lot of people.

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I got to talk to a lot of vendors.

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And I think that really helped again, when

you're studying for those certifications.

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The jargon, the language, being immersed

in that subject, going and networking

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is important, but it's different than

what you might have thought about 10

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years ago where, Oh, I'm going to go

to this meetup, I'm going to go to this

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conference, and this will be a job fair.

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No, no, no.

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None of that.

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It's simply you going to a place in your

industry and just immersing yourself in

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that and understanding what's going on.

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It really helps to get you into that

mindset and into that field to be able

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to really immerse yourself in that tip.

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Number three, internships

and entry level positions.

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I'm not so keen on the internships.

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I didn't start there.

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But if you are in college, I would

definitely check with an advisor

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and see if they have any connections

or anything that can help you

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out with some type of internship.

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That usually isn't something that you

find online, but it is something that

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your school may actually know about.

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Again, not my expertise, but

definitely a way in if you're younger.

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If you have a family to support

and things like that, I'm not

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really advocating internships.

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Entry level positions.

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YouTube video after YouTube video

after LinkedIn article, there's

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no entry level cybersecurity.

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Not entirely true.

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It's true in that you're not necessarily

going to come out of college or just

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go from IT right into cybersecurity.

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However, if you are in IT and you have

experience in that, and I did, it is a

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great way to get your foot in the door.

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It is hard to go from IT to

cybersecurity, and that's because a

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lot of cybersecurity hiring managers

may not see that as a direct transfer.

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However, in some other tips I'm going

to talk about, we're going to go

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over what you can do to avoid that.

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So those entry level positions

kind of do exist, especially

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if you have IT experience.

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And here's the thing, I've worked in

a lot of different organizations with

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a lot of very large IT departments.

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And I can definitively tell you that

not everybody in IT has any interest

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whatsoever going into cyber security.

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None.

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So you're not competing

with all of those people.

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But it is a way in.

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You do have experience.

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And it could potentially

be an internal move.

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It's harder to do.

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It's kind of a lateral transfer.

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But that's an easier transfer than having

absolutely zero IT and zero cyber security

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and trying to get into that field.

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If you don't have anything, at

all, getting into IT, you're

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not competing with anybody.

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It's not a bad way to go.

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And that is what I did

in my own experience.

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I actually had a lot of it experience and

I had to translate that into cybersecurity

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experience to let somebody know that,

Hey, while I don't have any direct

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experience with this, I have a lot of it

type experience with people, projects,

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doing things like that, and I can learn.

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And so that's a transferable skill

that I'm going to talk about.

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Tip number four is

projects and portfolios.

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You've heard this before

everywhere, really.

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Labs, building your own home lab,

doing whatever it is that you have

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to do to gain that experience, right?

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So you're building a lab, you're studying,

those are all things, those projects,

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those portfolios, helping, you know,

designing your own website, building

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your own route, you know, network,

firewalls, routers, anything like that.

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Those actually are things that

eventually you could put on a resume

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and have talking points about.

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And I think that's important because.

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A lot of people will just do a lab

and they'll say, Hey, I, you know,

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I completed hack the box or I did

something, but really you're doing

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a lot more than you think you are.

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And that is, those type of skills

are things that you should showcase,

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things that you should talk about.

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And so when you're looking at

your projects and your portfolios,

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just keep in mind, those are

resume building talking points.

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And they're also going to translate

into some other tips I'm going to tell

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you a little bit later in this video.

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So you do not, absolutely do

not want to discount that.

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If you build a website that's around

cyber security, you built this website

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that's maybe in direct relationship to

some volunteer activities you're doing, or

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helping people out in your community, or

you're teaching, or you're doing videos.

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That counts.

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That actually counts.

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And I don't see that on some

of the resumes I've seen.

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I don't see any of those type of things.

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Like outside activities where

somebody is, they're not waiting

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for a path to be built for them.

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They're building their own paths.

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And that is how they're helping

themselves get into this field.

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So, don't discount

projects and portfolios.

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Tip number five is online platforms.

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Kind of mentioned it before, but,

hack the box, any type of CTFs

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that you've done, things like that,

OSINT type skills, helping finding

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missing persons, that all counts for

experience, and again, talking points.

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What a recruiter's gonna see is, the job

description, and here's what the hiring

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manager wants, and here's your resume,

and here's the skills that you can do.

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You've got to figure out a creative way of

getting the things that I'm talking about

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doing and getting that onto your resume as

things that you have done and do so that

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they match those keywords to let a person

know that, hey, I can do these things.

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If you've done CTFs, if you've done

Hack the Box, then you've sort of

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done red teaming and pen testing.

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And if that's the area that you want

to go into, and you don't put those

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on your resume, that's a huge miss.

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Tip number six, blogs and publications.

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I thought about starting a blog, or

writing a newsletter, or doing something

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like that, but to build up that type

of authority in this industry, or any

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industry, building up an authority

website, unless you've got a ton of money,

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It's going to take a very long time to do.

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If I started this YouTube channel and I

doubt it's going to get anywhere until

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I get to the 150 plus videos, right?

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It doesn't matter how good this video is.

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It's going to take me a while to build

up authority that anybody even remotely

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is interested in what I'm talking about.

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So I didn't go down the

blogs and publications.

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I thought about it.

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However, what you can do and you

should do is connecting to LinkedIn.

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Get your profile going.

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If it's not going, get a background,

get those keywords in your title

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for what you want to do, not what

you're currently doing, right?

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Cause people are looking for people that

are, you know, these are the things I

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need to do, not what you have done, unless

you want to go into the same industry.

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And you're going to start

writing LinkedIn articles.

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It's a great way to do it because

that platform is already there.

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It's already established.

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It's already authority.

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And now it gets you a chance

to start posting and writing.

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And making content in the field, the cyber

security field that you're interested

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in going into and building up sort of

an authority, a little bit more of a

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presence, a lot quicker than you could

if you just started a blog in your own

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in the maze of the internet where there's

already a million blogs on the subject.

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So I did do the blogs and publications.

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I just happened to use the LinkedIn.

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Because it takes care of

a lot of things at once.

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A, it helped me to network on LinkedIn.

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And B, I got to actually start talking

about my expertise and the things that

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I was interested on that platform.

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Tip number seven is additional training.

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I actually did take

Coursera and Udemy courses.

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They were cheap and free.

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They helped me understand a

particular subject matter better.

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Maybe you're a little

light in the DNS field.

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Maybe you don't understand how to

build your own firewall, whatever.

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Uh, Cyberry is another great one.

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I'll link to some of

these in the description.

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Taking classes like that online, that's

not something I put on my resume, but it

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absolutely started solidifying areas that

I felt that I was weak in, especially when

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you talk to recruiters or you start to

get interviews, you go into interviews.

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You're going to figure out where

your weak spots are, and you can

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use these classes to start building

on that and understanding those

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areas that you're weaker on.

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So, taking some classes online

like this, like Udemy or Coursera,

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uh, Cyberic, any of those type of

classes is actually very helpful.

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In addition to studying for your

certifications, you can use that as a

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kind of a supplement, but it's a very

good way to understand the subject matter.

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And solidify some of the things you

may not understand and maybe even

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find a domain in cyber security

that you didn't know existed

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that you actually really like.

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Tip number eight, soft skills.

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I think it's important to talk

about those type of things.

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I don't like putting it on a resume.

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A go getter, energetic, ability to learn.

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This doesn't work in

resumes these days anymore.

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Maybe it did back in the 80s.

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But it doesn't work now or it really

isn't something that I bother with because

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everyone's just going to blow by that.

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It's fluff, but you shouldn't discount

it because it is important to let the

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people know that you're talking to.

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Not only can you do the job and you

have the skills to do the job, but you

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have the ability to learn, you have the

willingness to do these types of things

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that you're working outside and doing

side gigs and learning on your own and

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doing all these types, you know, those

soft skills matter producing this video.

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It's a technical skill, but

it's a soft skill to be able to

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try and improve on my speaking.

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And I think that's extremely important.

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And while I don't put that on my

resume necessarily, don't want you to

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discount that because it is important.

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Tip number nine,

transferable skills, huge.

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If you're still in this

video, this is huge.

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If you're doing something in

it for a long time and you want

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to move into cyber security.

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You have to figure out a way to make

those transferable skills matter.

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If you've built Linux boxes,

if you've hosted or built Mac

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machines, if you've done Windows,

if you've done infrastructure,

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if you've dealt with users, if

you're dealing with tickets, right?

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This may not be directly related

to cybersecurity, but those

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are transferable skills that do

matter in the cybersecurity world.

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And you should not discount those.

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In fact, I had to take a lot of the

things that I had previously done and

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reword them into a cyber security way,

like if I built a Microsoft Active

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Directory infrastructure, if I built a

SharePoint server, and if it was in a

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lab, or if it was in my, you know, current

IT career, whatever, or if I had You

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know, designed it, anything like that.

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How do you rewrite those

skills to be transferable so

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that they're cybersecurity?

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When you're building those machines,

what are you doing in your mind?

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What are you doing in your mind to think,

how does this relate to cybersecurity?

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Was I thinking in a

cybersecurity type way?

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Was I thinking in information

security to protect members data?

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Was I looking at patches

and things like that?

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And if the answer is yes, and it should be

yes, those are things that go on a resume.

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Deal directly with cybersecurity, right?

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Patch management, vulnerability

management, thinking about those

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type things, those transferable

skills are not worthless and

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you do have to connect the dots.

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One of the best, one of the best things

I heard is I had a friend who I referred

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to a particular position and I know

that he could have done the job, but

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he took a stock resume or his current

job and did not tweak it at all and.

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Applied for a position that I, like I

said, he could have done, but didn't have

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this, didn't connect the dots in that.

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And so the hiring manager asked me

because it was a referral from a friend.

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: 00:17:24

I just want to make sure that this

person, you know, just want to

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: 00:17:27

take another look at and make sure

I'm not missing something here.

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: 00:17:30

And the interesting thing was he

gave, he gave me a really good tip.

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: 00:17:33

He's, he said, nobody has

time to connect the dots.

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: 00:17:37

Meaning.

312

: 00:17:38

Your resume, when you submit that, and

this is why you always hear about creating

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: 00:17:42

a tailored resume for that particular job.

314

: 00:17:45

When you submit your resume for that

position, you need to connect the

315

: 00:17:50

dots to the recruiter, to the hiring

manager, so they can understand that

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: 00:17:56

you are the person that can do that job.

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: 00:17:59

They are not going to have time

to connect the dots for you.

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: 00:18:02

So if you don't connect the dots,

they're not going to do it for you.

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: 00:18:08

So those transferable skills that you

have, that you know have something

320

: 00:18:13

to do or could have something to

do with cyber security, You're

321

: 00:18:16

thinking that mindset, right?

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: 00:18:18

You've got to connect the dots.

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: 00:18:20

So not only do you not discount

transferable skills, but you need

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: 00:18:24

to connect the dots with the hiring

manager and the recruiter to let

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: 00:18:28

them know that you have the skills

to do that because they're not

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: 00:18:32

going to connect the dots for you.

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: 00:18:34

Tip number 10.

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: 00:18:35

Stay updated.

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: 00:18:36

Listen to podcasts, read blogs, keep up

to date as best you can on what's going

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: 00:18:41

on in the field that you're interested in.

331

: 00:18:44

I had one person when I was in an

interview, it was kind of a round

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: 00:18:47

table, they said, what podcast

do you listen to for security?

333

: 00:18:50

I actually have some on my overdrive.

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: 00:18:53

And so I was able to answer that question.

335

: 00:18:56

Doesn't mean you listen to it

every day, but if it's a question

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: 00:18:58

they're going to throw at you,

like how do you stay updated?

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: 00:19:01

You've got a great answer.

338

: 00:19:02

I read these blogs, I use Feedly, I've got

Overdrive, and I listen to these podcasts.

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: 00:19:06

That's it.

340

: 00:19:07

No one's going to ask you what happened

in those podcasts, or what do you

341

: 00:19:09

find most interesting about them.

342

: 00:19:13

How do you stay updated in

this field that's constantly

343

: 00:19:16

changing is a valid question.

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: 00:19:19

And it is one you can easily

answer by staying updated.

345

: 00:19:23

Very easy.

346

: 00:19:24

So whatever industry that you're in, go

ahead, subscribe to some blogs, subscribe

347

: 00:19:28

to some newsletters, listen to some

podcasts, That's how you stay updated.

348

: 00:19:32

That's how you answer that question.

349

: 00:19:34

Tip number 11, further education.

350

: 00:19:37

So if you want to go back and get

a degree in information technology

351

: 00:19:41

or a information security related

field, you can certainly do that.

352

: 00:19:45

That isn't what I did.

353

: 00:19:46

I studied for, like I said, the

CompTIA, Security Plus and the CISSP.

354

: 00:19:50

Those are the two things

that I went after.

355

: 00:19:52

However, further education, you want to

learn API security, things like that.

356

: 00:19:57

More than just the online

classes, there may be something

357

: 00:20:00

you can actually take, right?

358

: 00:20:02

You may be able to go to a conference

and go to some of the training sessions,

359

: 00:20:05

and that would be further education.

360

: 00:20:08

A little bit hard to do when you're

not actually working in the industry,

361

: 00:20:11

unless you want to spend that money.

362

: 00:20:13

But it's another way.

363

: 00:20:14

It's another thing to put in your resume.

364

: 00:20:15

It's another talking point and

it's something that's extremely.

365

: 00:20:18

Number 12, seek mentorship in college.

366

: 00:20:22

This could be a career counselor

or your instructor to figure

367

: 00:20:26

out, Hey, are there different

internships, things where I should go.

368

: 00:20:29

If it's in LinkedIn, you can actually

network with people, especially

369

: 00:20:33

people that you've worked with.

370

: 00:20:35

Certainly reach out to people in the

field and craft a message to tell them

371

: 00:20:40

what it is that you're trying to do,

what it is that you're looking to do,

372

: 00:20:43

and can they offer any tips and tricks.

373

: 00:20:45

I've had people who I previously worked

with in the customer service area that

374

: 00:20:50

really wanted to go into cyber security.

375

: 00:20:51

They didn't do it while they were

working there, but they really liked it.

376

: 00:20:54

And it just so happens that

I had some tips for them.

377

: 00:20:58

Because I asked.

378

: 00:20:59

And so it could be as simple as that.

379

: 00:21:02

Seeking mentorship is a good thing.

380

: 00:21:04

Cold calling, cold emailing,

cold LinkedIn reaching out.

381

: 00:21:08

I don't really care for that myself.

382

: 00:21:10

But if you do have someone who you've

connected with previously, and maybe

383

: 00:21:13

one of those conferences seeking

mentorship, how you can improve

384

: 00:21:18

yourself, what areas should I look at?

385

: 00:21:20

How can I do things?

386

: 00:21:21

Very valid.

387

: 00:21:22

You should do it while you're

currently working, and you should

388

: 00:21:24

also do it in your professional life.

389

: 00:21:27

It's a little bit easier said than done.

390

: 00:21:30

But seeking mentorship is

something you absolutely positively

391

: 00:21:33

should spend your time doing.

392

: 00:21:34

Tip number 13, volunteer opportunities.

393

: 00:21:38

Is there something that you can

do in your community, friends, or

394

: 00:21:41

family, to volunteer in the cyber

security field, in the information

395

: 00:21:46

world, that can go on a resume?

396

: 00:21:49

So if you went to public center and

you gave a presentation on password

397

: 00:21:56

managers and why, what they are, why

you should use them, how you should

398

: 00:21:59

use them, and then you helped people.

399

: 00:22:02

Download one and configure them.

400

: 00:22:03

And you made a training

video on that kind of thing.

401

: 00:22:05

Do you think that doesn't

go in your resume?

402

: 00:22:07

For rolling out a password manager

to, you know, a subset of 50

403

: 00:22:12

people, 60 people, whatever?

404

: 00:22:14

If you don't, you should put that down

because it is something that you do.

405

: 00:22:19

Doing that is just as valid as doing

a 50 60 people at a private company.

406

: 00:22:24

It's you doing a thing in the field for

a group of people training and learning.

407

: 00:22:29

And educating them and then helping them

out, doing something in cyber security.

408

: 00:22:34

If you do it for 50 people at your church

or 50 people at your company, you're still

409

: 00:22:39

ruling out a password manager, you're

still explaining it to everybody, and

410

: 00:22:42

you're still showing them how to do it.

411

: 00:22:44

And it's valid, and if you don't put

it down as a talking point at least, or

412

: 00:22:48

something on your resume, you're missing

out on a really large opportunity.

413

: 00:22:52

And the last tip, and the best

tip, because nobody's going

414

: 00:22:56

to make it to the end of this,

Is starting your own business.

415

: 00:23:02

Meaning if you want to go from it and you

want to go to cybersecurity and you've

416

: 00:23:07

got this gap in between where it's really

hard, you're using your transferable

417

: 00:23:11

skills, you're volunteering, you're

doing everything that you possibly can.

418

: 00:23:14

Starting your own business

allows you to pave your own path

419

: 00:23:20

and it allows you to go and.

420

: 00:23:22

Either offer those services to other

companies or other people for money or

421

: 00:23:26

for free or whatever you want to do.

422

: 00:23:29

You can create that page on LinkedIn.

423

: 00:23:31

You've got your own business now where

you're doing these type of things.

424

: 00:23:35

And you can start creating your

own avenues and your own pathways.

425

: 00:23:40

into the field that you want to go into.

426

: 00:23:43

And then maybe that business

will actually take off.

427

: 00:23:47

And you realize that I

like doing small business.

428

: 00:23:49

I like actually working for myself.

429

: 00:23:51

And if it doesn't work out, the easy

talking point is I tried to do my

430

: 00:23:55

own business and I realized it was

a little bit harder than I thought.

431

: 00:23:58

And I really like working with people

in sort of an organization where things

432

: 00:24:02

are a little bit more managed and that's

an easy transfer into cybersecurity.

433

: 00:24:07

So you can go from it, you

have cybersecurity over here.

434

: 00:24:11

And you don't know where to get into

that middle, start your own business.

435

: 00:24:15

Does that mean you have to start

an LLC or drop a ton of money?

436

: 00:24:18

It means you find a name, you find a

logo, you find an about, you put that on

437

: 00:24:22

LinkedIn, you start your own business,

and you start doing things in the

438

: 00:24:25

business capacity to create your own

experience that goes on a resume, because

439

: 00:24:31

it's your own business, and fills in

any gaps that you may or may not have.

440

: 00:24:35

And that is a tip.

441

: 00:24:36

Hardly anybody is going to give

you is starting your own business.

442

: 00:24:42

Because when you do that, you'll be

able to do a heck of a lot more stuff.

443

: 00:24:47

Then you would in any other capacity

because you're doing it for yourself in

444

: 00:24:51

a business capacity and you're creating

those things So starting your own business

445

: 00:24:56

if you haven't thought about it, you

really should think about it So with a

446

: 00:25:00

combination of these strategies, you can

really build a robust resume and gain a

447

: 00:25:05

lot of valuable experience Even if you

haven't had any Direct experience into the

448

: 00:25:12

cyber security world, it is very possible

to go from an IT world into cyber security

449

: 00:25:19

by using some of these tips and tricks

and building your own pathway into that.

450

: 00:25:24

I would have to say the ones that I found

to be most important were networking, the

451

: 00:25:30

industry certifications, starting my own

business and taking those transferable

452

: 00:25:35

skills and connecting the dots.